Darkshore and the BoD

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Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Laoric » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:12 pm

I've been reading the discussion of the BoD and it's concerns with signing the required insurance forms for Darkshore. I have some thoughts and concerns about what's going on.

I want to preface that my goal in this discussion is to have a discussion. I am sensitive to everyone's feelings on the issue and have no problem seeing how everyone's concerns are valid. The discussion so far has raised a number of parliamentary questions for me that I feel are important to work out, specifically in how different bodies are empowered.

The impass that has formed on the BoD is that Euric and Nakita do not feel comfortable signing documents that, they feel, might put them in a position of liability. Their stance seems to be that they cannot be compelled to sign documents without having their concerns dealt with and if those concerns aren't dealt with they don't have to sign.

As I see it, their concerns are important. People may not feel they are valid, but that's beside the point. If they are uncomfortable then they are uncomfortable and no one should be judging them for that. The question I have is, do they have the right to refuse to do that and stay on the BoD?

According to the Corpora, the BoD has no authority over the in-game running of Westmarch. If the BoD objects to the chosen autocrats of an event, they have no power to change who those autocrats are, beyond objecting to the monarchy as citizens of their lands. As such, by essentially refusing to sign the needed documents for a Westmarch event, they are affecting the in-game processes of Westmarch, which puts them in violation of the Corpora.

To me, the BoD exists to enact the will of the monarchy when interaction with mundane agencies is required. The Corpora supports this. They have the ability to apply oversite in the form of audits of financials and other records, but even then the BoD lacks the authority to alter a land's status or vote to impeach a monarch. That power still rests with the Althing.

This creates what is essentially a consitutional dilemma. On paper, the BoD lacks the ability to tell the monarch no when it comes to enacting the crown's policies. In my opinion, if Euric and Nakita are unwilling to sign the documents because they are uncomfortable, then they have a duty to step down from their positions. They are not empowered to take that level of authority, per Corpora, so if they object that strongly then they should resign in protest.

Okay, there's my stance, but I feel it's important to talk about the other side of the equation. Euric and Nakita have a right to object to what's happening and if the BoD is just required to rubberstamp everything sent its way then there's not much reason to have the body at all. We could elect a Liason Officer as part of our regular election cycles and empower that person to work with the monarchy and sign appropriate documents. We don't do that, however, to insulate the monarchy from the mundane. While the BoD isn't given the authority to block the will of the monarchy in the Corpora, is that something we want? Do we want those officers to have the ability to act as a check?

As an example, if the King found an opportunity to purchase land for Westmarch to own and convinced the Althing to authorize funds, do we want the BoD to have the ability to look at the contracts and stop a potentially bad sale? The issue before the BoD right now is essentially a basic version of this premise. How do we, as citizens, want our government to function?

Sorry for this post being long. I've been considering it for awhile and wanted to make a good post that would get the discussion going. I hope people will read this and we can have a good, honest, and open conversation about how our government should function.
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Grimbold » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:17 pm

I agree with your position. I don't think they HAVE to sign anything, but if they feel that their name on a document would put them at risk, then that should not be on the BoD.
I understand the concerns they have raised. My opinion of those concerns is that there is no liability difference now as a kingdom, than there was last year as a principality, and that there is no NEW liability issues that were not here before, and as such, there is no reason to be making a issue out of this at all. I also think that the amount of documentation that they want to examine is above and beyond the scope of BoD power. It has nothing to do with transparency, and only has to do with the BoD overstepping it's area of influence.
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Yrduna » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:57 pm

Azus and I were discussing this. It seems to me like the only reason this is coming up as a big hairy deal is because corpora says the BOD should deal with outside agencies and businesses. Maybe corpora should be amended when it conflicts with logic. BOD should have authority over contracts and dealings that affect the Kingdom; a single event is not the kingdom. If the insurance is for a single event, it's logical that the autocrat should sign the documents. I imagine there are contracts to reserve event sites. Do those contracts go before the BoD?

There's my 2 cents.
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Laoric » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:03 pm

Yrduna wrote:Azus and I were discussing this. It seems to me like the only reason this is coming up as a big hairy deal is because corpora says the BOD should deal with outside agencies and businesses. Maybe corpora should be amended when it conflicts with logic. BOD should have authority over contracts and dealings that affect the Kingdom; a single event is not the kingdom. If the insurance is for a single event, it's logical that the autocrat should sign the documents. I imagine there are contracts to reserve event sites. Do those contracts go before the BoD?

There's my 2 cents.


Per the Corpora, the autocrat is not empowered to sign binding documents for Westmarch. Having them be the ones to sign the document creates a problem where people can take it upon themselves to make agreements on the kingdom's behalf that can cause liability issues down the road.

Having the autocrat do that opens up too many problems that can be abused.
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Grimbold » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:18 pm

Laoric wrote:
Per the Corpora, the autocrat is not empowered to sign binding documents for Westmarch. Having them be the ones to sign the document creates a problem where people can take it upon themselves to make agreements on the kingdom's behalf that can cause liability issues down the road.

Having the autocrat do that opens up too many problems that can be abused.


SO, the Kingdom is effectively the autocrat of all kingdom events, then.
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Laoric » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:42 pm

Grimbold wrote:
Laoric wrote:
Per the Corpora, the autocrat is not empowered to sign binding documents for Westmarch. Having them be the ones to sign the document creates a problem where people can take it upon themselves to make agreements on the kingdom's behalf that can cause liability issues down the road.

Having the autocrat do that opens up too many problems that can be abused.


SO, the Kingdom is effectively the autocrat of all kingdom events, then.


This would be true, with the officers having the authority to delegate responsibilities.

For example, the Regent could ask someone else to cook the feast at an event.
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby sirnakita » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:29 pm

The only mention of autocrat is within the scope of autocrat of Crown Qualifications. Also, there is nothing regarding the running of events in the Corpora. My issue is that the autocrat that is making the decisions regarding the event wants someone on the bod to be named insured on the insurance.

I have stated I don't want my name on the insurance. I don't want to be the named insured on an event where I don't know what decisions are being made by a group of people with no definable authority granted by the corpora.

There are members of the bod who are also part of the autocrat team. I don't understand why they aren't volunteering to have their name added to the insurance. Those members have more access to the inner workings of the event and have their own liability risk related to their duties in the event.

As there are 7 members of the bod, then someone else can be named insured. Forcing myself and Euric to be named insured is punitive.

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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Laoric » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:57 pm

sirnakita wrote:The only mention of autocrat is within the scope of autocrat of Crown Qualifications. Also, there is nothing regarding the running of events in the Corpora. My issue is that the autocrat that is making the decisions regarding the event wants someone on the bod to be named insured on the insurance.

I have stated I don't want my name on the insurance. I don't want to be the named insured on an event where I don't know what decisions are being made by a group of people with no definable authority granted by the corpora.

There are members of the bod who are also part of the autocrat team. I don't understand why they aren't volunteering to have their name added to the insurance. Those members have more access to the inner workings of the event and have their own liability risk related to their duties in the event.

As there are 7 members of the bod, then someone else can be named insured. Forcing myself and Euric to be named insured is punitive.

Nakita


My understanding is that several BoD members have volunteered to sign the documents. The issue, for me, is that both you and Euric have refused to do the job you were hired to do. If you're not willing to do the job then step down and let someone else do it.

You can point to the Corpora not referencing an autocrat and that's smart, but all an autocrat is is the duly delegated representative of the monarch. They're acting on the monarch's behalf and the monarch has asked the BoD to do it's job and sign documents with a mundane agency.

Unless you'd prefer a system where the monarch goes and signs contracts without the BoD and the BoD still ends up with the responsibility since that's how both corporations and the government work.

To me, you've put us in an interesting spot. Can the BoD refuse to sign a contract when the monarch asks them to do so? My reading of the Corpora says no. What I think should be talked about is if we want the BoD to have a veto power or not.
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Dame Ailanthus » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:19 pm

sirnakita wrote: Forcing myself and Euric to be named insured is punitive.Nakita


No one wants you to sign anything Nakita. I think the consensus, which I understand you disagree with, is that it is the job of the liaison to deal with outside agencies. Euric just happens to be the liaison. If someone else were the liaison we would all have expected them to do it. Since he has refused, someone else is stepping up to get the job done, in what we hope is the right way.

I think a key point that was brought up is what powers the BOD has to refuse to sign a contract. Certainly we don't just want a rubber stamp BOD, but we also don't want a BOD taking powers beyond their scope. My opinion is that if anyone, including the monarch or regent bring a contract to the BOD, the BOD should review it, and do their best to resolve any issues they find. Beyond that, perhaps we should come up with a process for them to reject a contract if the contract is beyond resolving. Options I can think of is that they can take a vote, with their options being to refuse the contract outright, or send it to an Althing for a vote.
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Guyvas » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:23 pm

BOD members are attacking Nakita instead of trying to help resolve the issues in anyway. Instead of a compromise the rest of the BOD is being bullheaded
@Laoric The monarch didn't choose the autocrats or have any choice in the bid.
Therefore wouldn't it fall to either the autocrat team or to Wavehaven's BOD?
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Laoric » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 pm

Guyvas wrote:BOD members are attacking Nakita instead of trying to help resolve the issues in anyway. Instead of a compromise the rest of the BOD is being bullheaded
@Laoric The monarch didn't choose the autocrats or have any choice in the bid.
Therefore wouldn't it fall to either the autocrat team or to Wavehaven's BOD?


I'm not speaking about how people on the BoD are talking toeach other, nor do I care. I care about how we operate the government we've created. Complaining about the treatment isn't germaine to what needs to actually be talked about.

My understanding is that the WM monarchy and WH monarchy were both involved in the discussion. Porkins has stated it several times that this is a WM event. This also isn't germaine to the discussion but I wanted to clarify that what you are saying is wrong and should not disseminated as fact.
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Randy » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:19 pm

Can't we all get along?!

In general, over the past 22 years of playing amtgard and having been autocrat for dozens of events and on the crat team for nearly 50, the autocrat signs the contracts. How does this happen? Because the BOD has reviewed the bid and provided their approval. The copora (bylaws) only state that the BOD "Deal with any government or outside agencies, businesses, or organizations, or any of the local chapter’s subsidiary chapters with regard to contractual obligations. " That doesn't mean they are unable to allow an autocrat the authority to sign contracts.

It hurts me that instead of sitting around the table talking these issues out, our leaders are choosing to enter into petty politics and he said/she said antics. I'm wish I lived in an area where I could play amtgard 1/2 as much as you all have the ability too. I also wish you would make the events a little closer to southern lands, though it won't matter much since i'm about to deploy again.

Please for the sake of California Amtgard, put aside your differences and chose to work together rather than against one another. IF anything, send me the contract, I'll sign it.
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Azus » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:24 pm

My recollection of part of the timeline
Elisa said she wasn't comfortable having her name on the papers.
I offered to have my name on the papers, asked for clarification of what that entailed, then went to bed as it was late.
The next morning, Elisa, you said you felt one of the crats should be listed. Paul (who is WM BOD, WM Champion, and War-O-Crat per to bid presented to Wavehaven) volunteered. His volunteering might have been lost in the side discussions.

So for resolution, we've got two individuals who have stepped up, one of whom meets the criteria listed (a crat who is on the bod).

And I think I saw mention that the papers were to be adjusted with his name?

I also though that unless this was needed immediately, we were going to table some of this discussion to our regular meeting night. Online conversations are becoming a mess.
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Grimbold » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:29 pm

Guyvas wrote:BOD members are attacking Nakita instead of trying to help resolve the issues in anyway. Instead of a compromise the rest of the BOD is being bullheaded

This is untrue. The rest of the BoD is doing what Nakita and Euric are asking, after much disagreement. If anyone is being "bullheaded" it is them. Think what you want, but this is the truth.
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Re: Darkshore and the BoD

Postby Laoric » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:45 pm

Again, none of the personal arguments are valid for what we're talking about.

I want to come to an understanding of what our citizens expect from our government. Should the BoD have the authority to reject what the monarch needs done to run the kingdom?

The rest of this is basically personality conflicts that don't help us come to a solution.
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