Update Waiver of Liability Request

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Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby bill the nun » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:06 pm

As PM of CW, I have been making my populace sign new waivers for participation to get updated information. When I took over this office, most of the paperwork hadn't been updated or purged since the last time I was PM for my land over 5 years ago. I submit this as a serious concern. I believe that in order to have a waiver hold any form of accountability (as the same listed in the corpora for statute of limitations to retain paperwork) a precedent needs to be set for how often waivers should be updated. Physically holding onto the records, as far as I'm concerned, does not qualify as "maintaining" them.

Many of us move, paperwork can get lost, phone numbers change, people become legally responsible for themselves, emergency contacts change, etc. If we are to put any weight of reliability, or make it our responsibility to get someone the help they need when they need it-- I consider a signed waiver no longer valid information if older than a reign or two at the most. I also don't believe (in CW at least) that waivers are getting checked for accuracy as they should. A good portion of the waivers are not filled out correctly or legibly; again it raises the concern of a supposed legal document and it's validity. Not to mention: how helpful can it be if I can't make out the phone number to call if you're unconscious? I realize that these instances are few and far in between-- but someone is really going to be in trouble when we need that document and it's worthless.

My requests/concerns:

1) I think the general waiver of consent needs to be updated. It can be simplified so that people will actually fill things out correctly-- not to mention who has a pager nowadays?? I repeat: it's outdated. Please see attached word doc "revised amt waiver" for a potential solution (revised from the Iron Mountains waiver to fit WM). Aside from the document format itself, I hope this really encourages monarchy out there to realize that we are the advocates if someone gets hurt--- don't you want to make sure you can read/find the information you need?

2) There needs to be a timeline for how long a waiver is considered valid, and this requirement needs to be added to the corpora. I would assume this would best be under the local PM's responsibilities and overseen by the WM PM.

3) Demo's/Cons and waivers-- Please fill me in, but when we do a demo/event somewhere, are we not covered by their insurance anyway, making our waiver process superfluous? It's an absolute mess and waste of paper/funds to get 200+ signed waivers for a single day for someone in majority of cases we'll never see again. I see this as a waste of resources and am not sure if we actually need to have waivers at events like these since they would already have insurance. If we do, I submit that the top of the form should have the waiver legal stuff and then below listed things like "name, signature, email address". We don't really need any of that other stuff, but an email would be nice to try and get them to "like" our FB page or invite them to events etc.

/end rant. Thank you for your time and serious consideration.
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Re: Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby Fiks » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:03 am

Couple of quick notes before I kip off to bed...

bill the nun wrote:2) There needs to be a timeline for how long a waiver is considered valid, and this requirement needs to be added to the corpora. I would assume this would best be under the local PM's responsibilities and overseen by the WM PM.

Forwarded this recommendation to the Corpora Committee. We're gonna be voting on Article III soon so the timing is just on this side of good. Question I got is how regularly would you feel is good? Annually? Biannually? Every other year?

bill the nun wrote:3) Demo's/Cons and waivers-- Please fill me in, but when we do a demo/event somewhere, are we not covered by their insurance anyway, making our waiver process superfluous? It's an absolute mess and waste of paper/funds to get 200+ signed waivers for a single day for someone in majority of cases we'll never see again. I see this as a waste of resources and am not sure if we actually need to have waivers at events like these since they would already have insurance. If we do, I submit that the top of the form should have the waiver legal stuff and then below listed things like "name, signature, email address". We don't really need any of that other stuff, but an email would be nice to try and get them to "like" our FB page or invite them to events etc.

The waiver is optimally to protect Amtgard; player, land, kingdom, game. The insurance we get for events is to protect the landlord in case of disaster/lawsuit. While I do agree waivering 200+ for a single weekend is ridiculous, I don't think there's a legal overlap there. Just couch lawyering though so I might be wrong.
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Re: Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby Lady Tamara » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:36 am

bill the nun wrote:
3) Demo's/Cons and waivers-- Please fill me in, but when we do a demo/event somewhere, are we not covered by their insurance anyway, making our waiver process superfluous? It's an absolute mess and waste of paper/funds to get 200+ signed waivers for a single day for someone in majority of cases we'll never see again. I see this as a waste of resources and am not sure if we actually need to have waivers at events like these since they would already have insurance. If we do, I submit that the top of the form should have the waiver legal stuff and then below listed things like "name, signature, email address". We don't really need any of that other stuff, but an email would be nice to try and get them to "like" our FB page or invite them to events etc.

.


We keep the top of the waiver the same, but change the bottom to just have printed name, signature, and email address. I believe we fit about 20 per page. This keeps the costs down and many Deon's/Cons will sometimes make the copies for us to use as well. :D
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Re: Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby Faye » Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:57 pm

Having recently done some organizing of SSD's waiver file, I can definitely agree on the second point - I would love to know how long a waiver is valid for. I would be fine with re-doing waivers every year to two years. I think that is frequent enough to have up-to-date information, but not so often that it will drive PMs nuts. I do wonder how we will accurately track that, however... dues we can monitor through the ORK and/or with a ledger - would we hold a separate waiver-ledger?
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Re: Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby bill the nun » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:45 pm

I actually have a custom sign in sheet via excel, the non up to date waiver people are highlighted and the header says "highlighted =sign new waiver" or something to that effect
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Re: Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby Collin the Red » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:40 pm

New ORK has a waiver tracking toggle. Must be manually set with each new player.
You can print a ledger of the roster with the waiver status.
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Re: Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby bill the nun » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:36 pm

I would like to know the update on these issues and if the BOD/monarchy has decided when there will be a vote or forward momentum on a resolution? Thanks!
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Re: Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby Fiks » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:14 pm

BOD has nothing to do with it, currently. Can't speak for the Monarchy either...

What I can say is that the Corpora Committee currently has a suggested edit to codify the Prime Minister to renew waivers three years from the date they're signed being voted on. Voting ends in a little over a week then the amendment proposal gets forwarded to the King for an Althing. Went with three years as that's the minimum a land is supposed to be holding onto records anyway, so ideally a Prime Minister is auditing their papers and tossing old stuff that's three years old if they so choose. The suggested edit is to make them toss three-year-old waivers and obtain new ones.
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Re: Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby bill the nun » Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:26 pm

I cannot believe that a waiver will still be considered accurate information if 3 years old. Let alone trusting someone to properly fill out the information on the waiver in the first place. Is this seriously what we are okay with? Also, if a player isn't active within a year, they should be expected to fill out a new waiver anyway, in my opinion.

Fiks, totally not being grouchy over you being the messenger btw.
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Re: Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby Collin the Red » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:02 am

I see two issues:
Information on waivers becoming obsolete as people move and change contact info, and
Demos having waivers being a logistical nightmare as demos can have 100's of players.

On the first, we can have waivers expire after a set time as Bill suggested, or Request that anytime anything on a waiver changes, including changing your Persona name, a new one be submitted.

The second is to have a one event waiver, good for the event/demo only, and the player would need to fill a new one out once coming to the park. These could be multi-person waivers that include the name of the event and dates, and only collect name, e-phone, email, and signature.

On a separate but related item, shouldn't we be requiring proof of ID of the signer? That way we get the real name, legible info, and proof of age? I know the ork doesn't collect this info, but for pure liability, say some kid shows up, fills out the form, says he is 18, but is 17, gives us false info, then gets injured. We now don't have a waiver with his name nor proof he signed, and we didn't do due diligence because it was not required.

So, while the Corpora doesn't require proof of ID nor age, as PMs maybe we should do our due diligence above and beyond requirements. Get new Waivers, Ask for ID from new players, Make Demo players sign a hold harmless at the event, and again once they come to a park. As PMs we do have that authority at park level to do this. Why limit ourselves to the required actions. Protect your park and your players by being vigilant and keep up on all paperwork.
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Re: Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby Fiks » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:09 pm

bill the nun wrote:I cannot believe that a waiver will still be considered accurate information if 3 years old. Let alone trusting someone to properly fill out the information on the waiver in the first place. Is this seriously what we are okay with? Also, if a player isn't active within a year, they should be expected to fill out a new waiver anyway, in my opinion.

The information on my waiver was accurate for five years. Then it was inaccurate twice in one year. In fact I don't think I've actually filled a new waiver after the last move a year and a half ago... need to fix that. My point being that we can't fully anticipate how slowly or how fast people's lives change and neither should the Corpora. Three years is at least consistent with some of the other work the PMs should be doing. I'm confused by your second sentence though; if we can't trust people to fill their waiver out correctly the first time how will asking them to do it again in a year or two or three change that?

To address your third point, I would "retire" someone not active for six months while I did PM of Wavehaven, and absolutely ask for a new waiver when they came back. Even on lazy days I'd at least ask if their waiver information was correct. Even if we codified that, which in my opinion is asking a little much for an already heavily codified position, what are the chances that someone filling the office would do it? I feel like it's a very fine line between guiding someone to doing the right job the right way and over-micromanaging the position.

The corpora change being suggested is just a minimum and doesn't stop a PM from hounding people for newer information nor disallow someone filling out a new waiver. It just mandates a three year expiration date and gives the monarchy and the people a foot to stand on if they don't think their PM is doing a good enough job keeping waivers up to date.

bill the nun wrote:Fiks, totally not being grouchy over you being the messenger btw.

NP brah. Happy to at least offer something to your demands.

Collin the Red wrote:The second is to have a one event waiver, good for the event/demo only, and the player would need to fill a new one out once coming to the park. These could be multi-person waivers that include the name of the event and dates, and only collect name, e-phone, email, and signature.

Totally. If someone had a copy of the full waiver on a clipboard and then a sign-in sheet underneath with a line at the top stating, "By signing on this sign-in form for this event/demo/bar mitzvah boffer beatdown, I acknowledge and represent that I have read the attached Waiver of Liability and Hold Harmless Agreement, understand it, and sign this form voluntarily as my own free act and deed: no oral representations, statements, or inducements, apart from the foregoing agreement have been made; I am at least eighteen (18) years of age and fully competent, or I am the parent and/or legal guardian of a participant under eighteen (18) years of age; and I execute the release for full, adequate, and complete consideration, fully intending to be bound by the same," would that count the same as having signed the waiver itself? Arm-chair lawyering again though, so I don't know for certain. With just that sentence though, it would leave a lot of room for signatures and such. Similar to what Lady T was talking about, sounds like.

Collin the Red wrote:On a separate but related item, shouldn't we be requiring proof of ID of the signer? That way we get the real name, legible info, and proof of age? I know the ork doesn't collect this info, but for pure liability, say some kid shows up, fills out the form, says he is 18, but is 17, gives us false info, then gets injured. We now don't have a waiver with his name nor proof he signed, and we didn't do due diligence because it was not required.

So, while the Corpora doesn't require proof of ID nor age, as PMs maybe we should do our due diligence above and beyond requirements. Get new Waivers, Ask for ID from new players, Make Demo players sign a hold harmless at the event, and again once they come to a park. As PMs we do have that authority at park level to do this. Why limit ourselves to the required actions. Protect your park and your players by being vigilant and keep up on all paperwork.

It's not a bad idea to ask for ID. Does it need to be added to the corpora? Dunno. Does it need to be added to the waiver? (Ie: "In signing this release and presenting a valid government issued photo ID, I acknowledge...") Sounds like a good idea to me. And if someone under the age of 18 lies about their age, fills out a waiver and promptly gets injured, we still have a signed waiver, which is also proof of falsifying information on a legal form. Prolly doesn't save the group from a lawsuit, but does give it something to fight back with, I'd think.
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Re: Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby Water Hammer » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:12 pm

For the length of holding paperwork, California requires anyone bringing a personal injury lawsuit to file within two years. So I think holding paperwork beyond 3 years is too much. Anything less than two years would be irresponsible.

I encourage getting new waivers anytime we feel uncomfortable with what we have on file. A shorter list of those we have 'good' waivers from could be made and anyone not on that list has to fill out a new one. If we never add anyone to that list from any con waivers (Toycon waivers have extra language)(Lumacon and Hobby Expo did not require additional language), we would automatically require a new waiver when new people make it to the park.
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Re: Update Waiver of Liability Request

Postby Collin the Red » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:30 pm

In lieu of a like button...^THIS^
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